Archive for March, 2016

Post-Tribulation, Pre-Wrath

March 30, 2016

On 3/27/16 4:03 PM, j.alvarez4jesus [whichversion] wrote:

“You’re the one who protested that God is not a wife beater as if he would not allow his children to suffer persecution in this life.”

Uh, no. I protest God is not a wife beater as if GOD isn’t going to persecute His children. Man can, sure, but not God. Otherwise, He would literally be a wife beater.


If you think that no Christian has ever suffered under any punishment meted out on any wicked people in all history, you are sore deceived.

“Since when has he saved his people from all natural disasters, or even all the consequences of the natural disasters that we call “acts of God”?”

Who’s “we”? I certainly don’t call natural disasters “acts of God”. And there is no scripture (in our dispensation – Ephesians 3) that you can point to that blames God for natural disasters.


That’s a figure of speech. It’s English. Go look it up. Aare you guys saying that NO CHRISTIAN EVER IN HISTORY HAS EVER SUFFERED FROM A JUDGMENT OF GOD LIKE AN EARTHQUAKE, A PLAGUE, A DROUGHT, OR OTHER NATURAL DISASTERS??!!

Or ANY judgment of any kind on any people? Can you guarantee that? The Tower of Siloam? Blind from birth not for any sin? The Black Plague, no Christian died?

Post-tribulation, pre-wrath. Sure the worst plagues are reserved for after the Tribulation. The Tribulation ends at the last trump when the saints are gathered together to meet the Lord. The cups of the wrath of God are poured out on the other in the few days after that. The Wrath ends with the last vial poured out, which is at the Battle of Armageddon.

“I never said the saints would be the target of the Tribulation, but Jesus indeed did say (Mat. 24)”

No, He didn’t. He never said we would go through THE Tribulation. THE tribulation is not a Biblical title of this 7 year period coming up. He said, “ Immediately

after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This period is never called THE tribulation as a title, but this verse is referring to tribulation as a description “of those days”. You’re being unscriptural for labelling this time period THE tribulation (as if it were the only tribulation the world ever experienced, which it isn’t). Jews in the Old Testament experienced “tribulation”. Christians today (and in the past, who could not have already gone into this time period, because it hasn’t come yet) experience “tribulation”. Just do a simple word study of “tribulation” to see what I’m talking about. Just because there’s tribulation in those days and Christians go through tribulation doesn’t at all mean or imply that we are actually going to go through “those days”. The Biblical title for this time period is NOT THE tribulation, but something else, “Alas!

for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:7). That’s the Biblical title for it. So, no, Jesus did not say we would go through THE tribulation, and there would be no point for the body of Christ to be going through the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble.

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I’m the one who had to point out that many saints have gone through tribulations, and Jesus said “Ye SHALL have…”

Your repeating of the phrase “those days” shows that you did not read the passage carefully, like I assume you do with the scriptures that promise God will preserve his Word.

In Matthew 24:15 Jesus refers to “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:”. In the next few verses he tells about what happens, flee to the mountains and all that. Why? Because, he says, Matthew 24:21:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


(Daniel 9:25-27, and Daniel 12:1)
So, when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place… THEN shall be great tribulation. And not only that, Jesus Christ made sure we understood that THAT is when the greatest tribulation ever would happen, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

But:
The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. — Nahum 1:7

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.-Matthew 5:45”

Um, neither the sun nor rain is God’s wrath. In fact, both are blessings. The sun is obviously a good thing. If you don’t believe me, just shut yourself in a closet in total darkness for one day. Rain is also a blessing. God waters your plants for you. There is nothing here about saved Christians going through God’s wrath. In fact, Paul said, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath…” (1 Thessalonians 5:9). For you to suggest otherwise is to go against scripture. Oh, and Matthew 5 isn’t written to blood bought Christians, since we are already children of the Father and have no need of further Catholic “purification” to become children, “For

ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:26).


Really. You missed the point of the verse of course. There’s plenty more to make the point. Time and chance happeneth to them all”.

“God saved Noah and his family through the time of the Flood, not from the Flood.”

Well then you’re quite ignorant of scripture and just plain English. To “save” something means to rescue it or keep it from something else. It does not mean to put something through evil. That would be to destroy. By the plain fact that God SAVED Noah (as shown in the following verses) proves that Noah was kept FROM the flood. There was not one drop of the water of God’s wrath that touched Noah. God didn’t just give him swimming lessons, He saved Noah FROM the waters (floods) by placing Him in an ark of safety. Oh, and on a related note, we as Christians are not saved to go through God’s wrath, but we are saved FROM the wrath of God, “Much

more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Romans 5:9). “By

faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” (Hebrews 11:7). “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5). Besides, this “point” is moot since we as the body of Christ are not Noah.


Semantics. You ignored the obvious fact that I would know the Biblical version of the Flood, instead of addressing the point. Enoch was spared going through the Flood in the pre-trib sense, but Noah’s family was protected IN and DURING the Flood rains.

God is just as capable of protecting his church here on the Earth FROM the events of Tribulation as he was Noah from the Flood, even as he raptures the saints out –in view of all, it says, “Every eye shall see him”– before the worst plagues of the vials of the wrath of God.

“Saints of God since the beginning of time have suffered cancer, floods, drought, accidents, falls, drowning of boats and ships, plagues, freezing, attacks by beasts, anything you can name for sure. I’ve known some saints myself who are with the Lord after such experiences.”

Sure. Absolutely. But cancer, floods, drought, accidents, falls, drowning of boats and ships, plagues, freezing, attacks by beasts, and anything I can name for sure, do not come as God’s wrath on a saved Christian. For you to believe that it is God who unleashes His wrath (not just allows to happen, but actually unleashes His wrath) on blood bought forgiven Christians is to go against the character of God. “That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).


OF COURSE these “natural disasters” don’t happen to the saints as God’s wrath, and that is EXACTLY my point, because they are examples that show that the use of that kind of language to reject Paul’s admonitions to not say “any minute now” until the man of sin is revealed (Thess) and he places the abomination that maketh desolate in the holy place (Matthew 24), because THEN shall begin the greatest tribulation of all time (Matthew 24) and, then, AFTER the Tribulation of ‘those days’ that Daniel the prophet spoke of, THEN the saints will be gathered to him in the air.

“AND

GOD’S WORD PROMISES THAT THE SAINTS WILL SUFFER UNDER THE ANTICRHIST REIGN:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.–Revelation 13:7

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;-Daniel 7:21”

Sure. Saints will suffer the antichrist’s reign. But it can’t be us as Christians for two reasons:
For God to PROMISE that THE saints WILL suffer under the Antichrist, and if the “saints” here are Christians, then that would make God is a liar. This is because THE Christian saints in the past who died before the antichrist has even come DIDN’T suffer the reign of the antichrist. Thus, these “saints” cannot be part of the body of Christ. Second, “saints” doesn’t always refer to Christians in the Bible. It sometimes refers to Jewish believers apart from our current “dispensation

of the grace of God” (Ephesians 3:2). “Gather

my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” (Psalm 50:5). Obviously, this isn’t a reference to Christians who rely on Christ’s sacrifice, but to Jewish believers in God who performed animal sacrifice in the Old Testament to be right before God. “Saint” simply means someone who is saved, or righteous before God. After the rapture happens, there will be a dispensational change back to the Mosaic Old Testament ways of being saved (with the exception of Christ as the fulfillment of all animal sacrifice). Don’t believe me? Just look at Jesus’ own words concerning this coming 7 year Time of Jacob’s Trouble, “But

pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For

then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:20-21). Christians aren’t commanded to celebrate the sabbath (Colossians 2:16). Jews in the Old Testament did. These are the saints of the future Time of Jacob’s trouble: Jacob, Israel, the Jews who believe on Christ.

==
Now you’re falling back on the Scofield dispensations confusion, as if God treats Jews and Christians differently. You’re forgetting the straightforward language of figures of speech. The idea was that it would be a day you would have to flee far from some places.

He also said that the Tribulation of “those days” would be the very tribulation that Daniel spoke about, and that “immediately AFTER” would be that gathering together.

Darby and Scofield have caused such an adulteration of the Word that you even have difficulty understanding how to understand my sentences, and parsing the logical construction in the scriptures.

“And after Jesus gave the signs of the end, and spoke of the Tribulation in Matthew 24, he went on to Matthew 24:33, where he said in this PRIVATE class to his DISCIPLES ONLY (See verse 1)

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.-Matt 24:33

When YE shall see ALL these things…”

You are correct. Except for the fact (again) that this coming time period isn’t called THE tribulation. But regardless, yes, Jesus spoke in private to His disciples. But that doesn’t mean He was talking to Christians. This is because Christians can only exist after Jesus has died on the cross. One scriptural proof that the disciples weren’t Christians yet (but still only JEWISH believers in God) is Jesus’ own statement to Peter, “But

I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” (Luke 22:32). None of the disciples were converted or became Christians until Christ died on the cross. Thus, what Jesus told to His disciples in Matthew 24 was not to Christians, but to Jewish believers still under the law of Moses. Are you a Jewish believer under the law of Moses? No, thus you aren’t as a Christian going under that time period.


There you go again with the Jew-Christian confusion. The OT scriptures “spoke of me”, Jesus said. Among a great many other scriptures, Paul wrote in Hebrews 11 about how the faith of the OT prophets in God’s grace (not their own righteousness of works) was the same faith in God’s grace through Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ himself MOCKED those Jews that were the most holy of all under the laws of Moses that you seem to think he held in such high esteem over God’s love. Ha, he said, you claim to follow the Law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Here is a good one for dispensations:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.–John 3:36

The Jews lost that “kingdom of God” –in the “Jewish” gospel– because they did not show the fruits of faith. (Matthew 21:43)

“And then he warns against false prophets. In my view that includes Cyrus Scofield, the Bible perversions of Darby, and who hated the Bible and preferred the “better” interpretations.”

Why would Scofield be a false prophet? I have no doubt Darby was with His edited Bible, but Scofield? Every indication of what I’ve studied about him seems to be that of a saved man. And why shouldn’t we prefer better interpretations over worse ones? I don’t get it.

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His hating the Bible of the day is evidence, and teaching subterfuge to the pastors of the day to prefer the “better” interpretations while pretending to adhere to the KJB.

That is enough to show spiritual kinship with the Pharisees. jesus called them “liars” and that’s a good word for somebody who says “Hath God said KJB? Nay, I say unto you, he said something else”. It means something else, the Greek says this, the Hebrew says that, blah blah.

So don’t call Scofield prophet. Doesn’t matter. He’s no more prophet than the ones Jeremiah called “false prophets”. His prophecy “interpretation” was certainly flawed and has confused a multitude of Christians and saints and Messianic Jews.

“Jesus said “By their fruits ye shall know them”. The Pharisees were oh so holy and rebuked Jesus and the disciples for violating the minor points of the law and their own traditions. They strain at gnats and swallow camels. I suggest you follow Jesus’ admonition in Luke 9:50 “And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” Which was the Lord’s response to verse 49 “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.”

Except these professional posties are against us. They are against Jesus’ imminent return and commonly Jesuit agents for the Vatican.


My point there was to accompany the point that it is not good to strain at gnats and swallow camels in the matter of doctrines of salvation vs. the timing of the Tribulation.

I know that the pre-Tribulation rapture will cause some doubt and falling away among some weaker vessels as events unfold, but I’m just glad that believers have received eternal life.

“”He shall be saved out of it” (Jer 30:7) is not enough to say it is a gathering together and catching up in the clouds, especially since that would contradict the promises that the saints will be on the earth during the Antichrist rule and his persecution and that he will overcome them.”

Huh? When did I ever say that referred to Christians? I didn’t. In fact, my whole point was that this is a time period for Jewish people. Yes, “he shall be saved out of it” is talking about the end. But it’s for “Jacob”, not the church.


There is part of the problem here. Saints are saved sinners. How much more can one be a “saint” than one who is covered by the righteousness of Christ? And how can someone who hath not the son of God be a “saint”? Because Jesus himself said “the wrath of God abideth upon him”. That the kingdom of God is taken from them. We are grafted in but they cut themselves off. They are dead branches on the forest floor. The best candidates for being “saints” according to the Dispensation thing, today, they proudly but quietly acknowledge among themselves that they are the “spiritual heirs” (their own words) of the Pharisees.

The believing Jews of Jesus’ day, the ones who did believe, they were the spiritual heirs of Abraham by faith the same as us. The temple was rent in twain to show that the spirit of God had departed from the Ark, and that being of the circumcision of the flesh, even as OT prophet Ezekiel had written, was completely worthless without a circumcision of the heart.

Some of the Jews will come to Christ during the Tribulation, and since God cares for his children, he will keep “those that understand among the people” around so that “they can instruct many” and “they that do know their God” during these troubled times “will do exploits”.

“And now a specific number of days that refers to the three and a half years of the Tribulation after the Beast breaks the “holy covenant” in Daniel 9:27.
“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.+ – Daniel 7:25”

Except it’s not THE tribulation (once again). I urge you to reconsider and repent of your heresy. You believe that God is going to pour out wrath and judgement on His bride. You believe God is a wife beater. I don’t, and neither does the King James Bible. That’s why I’m pre-TOJT, and why you should be as well.

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I told you. Listen carefully this time.
POST-Tribulation, PRE-Wrath. And wife beater? When did you stop beating yours?

I’ve posted about a hundred verses, and scripture excerpts from all over the KJB Bible, from the perspective that God hath no respect of persons, and Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever, during the OT and during the NT and after the NT and on through the New Heaven and the New Earth.

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He is no fool who gives a life he cannot keep for a love he will never lose.

March 22, 2016

He is no fool who gives a life he
cannot keep for a love he will
never lose.

Whatever this life and this world have to offer, it’s only for a little while. But salvation, souls, and service for the Lord are forever; they are eternal. “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever” (1 John 2:17). “For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:18).

Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt, which could have been his, because he looked to the reward (Hebrews 11:26). He looked beyond his day and all of its problems and temptations and saw Jesus. He had an eye on eternity and its great rewards, and counted the riches of Christ greater than all the riches of Egypt, the richest, most powerful nation on earth in that day, of which he could have been pharaoh (Hebrews 11:24-27).

If we pay the same price and make the same sacrifices, we too can look forward to eternal rewards and everlasting glory. By giving our all to the Lord, we are going to receive so much more. What a small price to pay for all we’re getting in return!